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Rememberance day and war.

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Rudo333	Rememberance day and war.	Lead	[-]
Posts: 11044 ( 7 Nov, 2009 4:08 PM) The Pun Man Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Rememberance Day. What should we remember? Those who sacrificed their lives? The futility of war? The need for war? The stupidity of war? The justness of war? The need for war? Lots of questions and, no doubt, lots of emotions, feelings and views. Do wars of the current age e.g. Iraq and/or Afghanistan create the same rememberance emotion and pride of the dead as the 2nd World War or does it create more anger at their dying? Is war about nationhood or is it playing politics with peoples' lives?
Julia333		#1	[-]
Posts: 77740 ( 7 Nov, 2009 4:38 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Rememberance Day. What should we remember? We should remember the victims, those who had no choice in the matter. 95% of victims of war are not soldiers but civilians. I'd include conscripts since they also had no choice to kill, unlike voluntary soldiers who set out to kill, accept money to kill, train to kill. In the last decade alone over 10 million children were killed by soldiers. We should remember the bo**ocks that people were brainwashed with re WW1 - The War to End All Wars. Yeah, right! They must've thought we were born yesterday to believe such garbage. How many more millions of innocent civilians and children are going to have their brains blown out before people realise that war is good for absolutely nothing. If I wore a poppy it would naturally be a white one because I'm a pacifist. I'll be wearing a white poppy tomorrow, in remembrance of the bravery of war-resisters and conscientious objectors as well as civilians, children and soldiers killed in the name of war. Such a small word to stand for so much murder. A prize for the first person shown on TV wearing one, and although I'll be keeping the two minutes silence I'll be doing it without uniforms, flags, marching or royalty. Glorifying militarism seems an inappropriate thing to do on such a day. Source A lady after my own heart.
Alvida		#2	[-]
Posts: 9791 ( 7 Nov, 2009 5:58 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Rudo333 wrote: Rememberance Day. What should we remember? Those who sacrificed their lives? Yes, that's what it is for. I've not had an opportunity to buy a poppy so I made a donation to the national Gulf Veterans and families association.
Wolf 2uk		#3	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 843 ( 7 Nov, 2009 6:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	All who died during War. Politicians normally take a country to War, they should be first in line to say sorry.
VirgoAnnie		#4	[-]
Posts: 4861 ( 7 Nov, 2009 11:19 PM) Celtic Queen Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree with the wearing the white poppy for peace, but the red poppy is not to promote war. But to remember those who lost their life in the line of duty.
Diamond Rose		#5	[-]
Posts: 2648 ( 8 Nov, 2009 6:16 AM) Rebel Angel Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	We should remember the bo**ocks that people were brainwashed with re WW1 - The War to End All Wars. Yeah, right! They must've thought we were born yesterday to believe such garbage. - Julia The phrase 'war to end all wars' was actually a reference to the scale of the war. It did not mean it would put an end to war. As Australia already has ANZAC Day, Remembrance Day is not observed to the same degree as it is elsewhere (at least I can spell it ). .. the red poppy is not to promote war - Annie Exactly. The white poppy idea sounds a little self-righteous, as well as being disrespectful to those who served their country. The red poppy commemorates 'all' who died in war, not just the soldiers.
Rudo333		#6	[-]
Posts: 11045 ( 8 Nov, 2009 9:16 AM) The Pun Man Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Of all the shots fired during war - add to that the cheap shot on spelling!
Diamond Rose		#7	[-]
Posts: 2652 ( 8 Nov, 2009 12:40 PM) Rebel Angel Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Remembrance Day 2009 - Rudo, a causality in war. Lest we forget. In the morning we shall rememberer him. Dude, get a grip.
visitor132		#8	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 289 ( 8 Nov, 2009 1:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	WW1 and WW2 were wars that were fought to stop an agressor, it was necessary for the Allies to fight back. From an American standpoint, the Korean confilict was a turning point. It was a police action and may or may not have been justified. Things went downhill from there. The face of war has changed. I'd include conscripts since they also had no choice to kill, unlike voluntary soldiers who set out to kill, accept money to kill, train to kill. Conscripts always had a choice to be a conciencious objector. Soldiers fight battles they do not start wars, polititicians/governments/leaders make war. Fallen comrades honored and remembered on remembrance day are not the same ones that are killing children today, they are the ones who gave their lives to protect your freedom and mine. Have you ever talked to a man who used to be soldier and talk to him about the horrors of war and seen the look on his face when talks of taking the life of an enemy soldier; felt the emtyness and horror he is left to live with. Very few people who join the military do so to kill anyone, those ones are usually weeded out. What you are describing are mercenaries, they are not honored on remembrance day. I was a soldier, I am a pacifist. We have to remember war and all of its horrors so that we do not do it again. Peace can only be acheived using peaceful means; acceptance, understanding, sharing, learning, growing, building a new world as a united species.
Alvida		#9	[-]
Posts: 9801 ( 8 Nov, 2009 2:06 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Have you ever talked to a man who used to be soldier and talk to him about the horrors of war and seen the look on his face when talks of taking the life of an enemy soldier; felt the emtyness and horror he is left to live with. I don't know, I heard a Falklands vet say he'd find it more unpleasant to kill a rabbit than an enemy, but then he suffered an appalling life-threatening injury and was amazingly lucky to survive. I don't think soldiers deserve to feel any guilt whatsoever about shooting someone who will shoot them dead in an instant given a chance. Fallen comrades honored and remembered on remembrance day are not the same ones that are killing children today... Who are the ones killing children today? What are you saying, remembrance for WWI & II vets but not for those of more recent campaigns? Civilians have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, mostly in the unplanned urgent ground support missions, they are taking steps to prevent this from happening, but horrific civilian casualties also occurred in WWI & II, lets not pretend they didn't.
Wolf 2uk		#10	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 846 ( 8 Nov, 2009 4:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	WW1 and WW2 were wars that were fought to stop an agressor, it was necessary for the Allies to fight back. From an American standpoint, the Korean confilict was a turning point. It was a police action and may or may not have been justified. Things went downhill from there. The face of war has changed. Visitor Good Analysis, I would agree, including some of the wars we in the UK have been committed too, but it's always easier to see things in Hindsight.
visitor132		#11	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 290 ( 8 Nov, 2009 4:24 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No Heather, I do not exclude any soldier. There is colateral damage in war. Civilian casualties are a reality in war and every soldier will do anything he can to prevent them. The justness of the war does not make me think differently of the men fighting it. I was refering to other wars going on in the world, genocide in africa and other places around the world. I do not support any war but the reality is we are in more than one. The soldiers do not deserve to be blamed for the war.
Alvida		#12	[-]
Posts: 9802 ( 8 Nov, 2009 4:56 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Oh I see, apologies for misinterpreting - thanks for clarifying.
visitor132		#13	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 303 ( 8 Nov, 2009 5:19 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No apologies needed. I need to make things clearer when I post.
Bendigo		#14	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 997 ( 8 Nov, 2009 5:25 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ah, lived through WWII, lost a father in it - "white poppy" for "Peace" = love it - first I've heard of it = IMHO the best remembrance (your point is well taken Rudo (sp) ) to honour those (military and civillian) who gave their all in the folly of war. Julia, you said it so very well, so I'll say no more.......
Alvida		#15	[-]
Posts: 9807 ( 8 Nov, 2009 5:45 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Don't know when the white poppy launched but they were sold when I was a kid in the early 80s.
Wolf 2uk		#16	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 847 ( 8 Nov, 2009 6:41 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't think I have every seen a White Poppy. Certain none down where I live. and none while I lived in Essex. To me the Red Poppy is what it's all about, remembering those that fell, so we could live in Freedom. But again it's Politician who committ us to war, so may be they should Jaw,Jaw, not War, War. As a side issue I thought the guy that refused to shake Blair's hand was right.
Julia333		#17	[-]
Posts: 77764 ( 8 Nov, 2009 8:39 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The white poppy idea sounds a little self-righteous, as well as being disrespectful to those who served their country. - Bruce Disrespectful?? What about the appalling disrespect shown to millions of innocent victims murdered in war, by glorifying the very people who killed them! I don't know why I'm surprised about these insane priorities when you also appear to show as much concern over petty spellings (and please remember our # 1 Terms of Use.) If you want to talk about respect, let's look at the definition of murder because I'm blowed if I'll respect anyone who falls under this category ... murder - the crime of deliberately killing someone (Longman dictionary) murder - kill intentionally and with premeditation. (WordNet) In joining the armed forces comes the full knowledge and intention of accepting payment to kill innocent civilians, accepting training to kill innocent civilians, and then actually going out and performing those vile acts of mass killing of innocent civilians. That sounds pretty much like murder to me. I'm certainly not saying that soldiers are therefore murderers, well not many, though some are certainly far worse, such as the soldiers who raped Iraqi children (boys and girls) and sexually abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib. An Iraqi teenage boy was raped by a uniformed man while photos of it were taken by a female US military police.Wikipedia And this is only one of many similar stories. Nothing new - it goes on in all wars, regardless of nationality of soldier. Always has and always will. The only justification I can see for people joining the forces is that they were fooled into believing propaganda, brainwashed into believing that mass killing is fine. And of course, many join the forces for the shallow perks of the job. Nothing whatsoever heroic about that! Pffft! Have you ever talked to a man who used to be soldier and talk to him about the horrors of war and seen the look on his face when talks of taking the life of an enemy soldier; felt the emtyness and horror he is left to live with. What on earth did they expect? No one forced them to join the forces. They knew full well that they'd be accepting training and money to kill. We reap what we sow. The soldiers do not deserve to be blamed for the war. Why on earth not? They're the ones pulling the triggers - no one else. Without them, bloody war wouldn't exist. I get fed up of people blaming politicians and governments for the mass killing soldiers commit. If our employers told us to blow an enemy's brains out, would we do it? Fallen comrades honored and remembered on remembrance day are not the same ones that are killing children today... - Visitor Soldiers have always killed children - always have and always will, regardless of nationality/country. WARNING - the following photos may be distressing to some. PHOTO - Dead German women and children killed by the soviets during the capture of Metgethen in 1945. PHOTO of Some of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children killed or injured in the Iraq war. Not to mention the 1.5 million Jewish children who perished in the Holocaust at the hands of military power, i.e. soldiers! What does it matter which soldiers? Every soldier believes he is right. And please anyone spare me the rubbish that if it wasn't for our military power more Jews would have perished in the holocaust. I'm sorry but so many Jews perished BECAUSE of military power, at the hands of soldiers! Without Nazi military power the Jews would have had a far better chance of escape and survival. I was a soldier, I am a pacifist. We have to remember war and all of its horrors so that we do not do it again. Peace can only be acheived using peaceful means - Visitor Bendigo wrote: Ah, lived through WWII, lost a father in it - "white poppy" for "Peace" = love it - first I've heard of it = IMHO the best remembrance (your point is well taken Rudo (sp) ) to honour those (military and civillian) who gave their all in the folly of war. Julia, you said it so very well, so I'll say no more....... I especially respect those comments coming from an ex soldier and someone who has lived through WWII, because if anyone realises the folly of war, you two do ... and thank you, Peter.
Alvida		#18	[-]
Posts: 9808 ( 8 Nov, 2009 9:15 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Julia333 wrote: The white poppy idea sounds a little self-righteous, as well as being disrespectful to those who served their country. - Bruce Disrespectful?? I rather see it the same way as Bruce, not the sentiment itself but the timing. Opponents of the white poppy argue that the traditional red poppy already encompasses the sentiments claimed for the white poppy, such as "remembering all victims of war", and consider that it undermines the message of remembrance. Others object that the money raised by the white poppy appeal is diverted from the funds raised for the Royal British Legion by the red poppy appeal. In 1986 British prime minister Margaret Thatcher expressed her "deep distaste" for the symbol. The Royal British Legion has no official opinion on the wearing of white poppies, stating that it "is a matter of choice, the Legion doesn't have a problem whether you wear a red one or a white one, both or none at all". wikipedia I disagree that white poppies steal funds from the poppy appeal because I doubt anyone who would only buy a white one would buy a red one anyway.
Bendigo		#19	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 999 ( 8 Nov, 2009 9:40 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Powerful post, Julia - thee and me read off the same page. Aye, I would buy both - white and red poppies - red for remembrance of all the lives lost, and white in the hope of a world at Peace some day. Plus to support the good works of both selling organizations. Interesting, while Charles and Camilla are out here in Vancouver/Victoria, each wears two poppies - both red - one for Britain and one for Canada...They leave tomorrow heading back through Ottawa, then home to the UK..I will say they have both been very well received out here; largely as a result of their personal charm - Charles has obviously blossomed in his marriage with Camilla (her first visit to Canada). Oops, I digress. Apologies
Rudo333		#20	[-]
Posts: 11047 ( 8 Nov, 2009 9:49 PM) The Pun Man Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To me the victims of war include ALL that perished, irrespective of age or uniform or nationality. It thus serves the same purpose as the red poppy and more. To imply that remembering some victims at the expense of all, by wearing the red poppy, seems at best, a tad shallow and at worst, glorification of the uniform. The ownership and the iniative of the red poppy belongs to the British Legion as their way of respecting former comrades and nothing wrong with that. The white poppy, I would suggest belongs to us all, in respecting all of those who suffered during armed conflict.

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