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Rememberance day and war.

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Alvida		#21	[-]
Posts: 9810 ( 8 Nov, 2009 10:26 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Rudo333 wrote: The white poppy, I would suggest belongs to us all, in respecting all of those who suffered during armed conflict. What do you think the red poppy is about? Remembrance Day - also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day (the event it commemorates) or Veterans Day - is a day to commemorate the sacrifices of members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war, specifically since the First World War. wikipedia In essence the white and red poppy stand for the same thing except for the stance on military action, the white poppy supports pacifism, the red accepts the need for a military force and expresses gratitude to those who serve. So if you don't wear a red poppy and wear a white one instead then you are not accepting a need for a military or expressing gratitude to those who serve in it. To state this as your view at exactly the same time as Remembrance Day is little more than a slap in the face, it is an anti-war protest, it is politicising what is not about politics but about remembrance - of all those who have died in conflict. Hence, this is why I'm not keen on the white poppy in terms of its' timing.
Rudo333		#22	[-]
Posts: 11048 ( 8 Nov, 2009 10:46 PM) The Pun Man Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	How many people have been killed by pacifists I wonder. Interesting points Heather and ironic that your emphasis seems to be on the military, which is the very point I was (perhaps badly) trying to make. These days the whole remembrance is focussed on the military rather than all lives lost, irrespective of what the small print says.
Bendigo		#23	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1000 ( 8 Nov, 2009 11:11 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Heather, Heather, Heather, is there no place in your heart for the millions of civilians who also perished? "Gratitude to those who serve" you say, would they have "served" without pay? No one gave the civilians a "choice." The white poppy expresses the wish/hope there will be a world where there will be "no need for a military." Let me end with that old truism: Some people see the world as it is, and ask why? I see the world as it might be, and ask why not? Military is not the answer, it is the problem.
Wolf 2uk		#24	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 849 ( 8 Nov, 2009 11:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	May be the Innocents, and I have no doubt there are many, should have there own day. But again today because it marks the date when the Guns fell silent, on the 11 hour of the 11th day (or nearest Sunday) when the solider stopped killing in the first world war. So it's Army-Air-force-Navy day, so that those that came back can morn those that didn't. But we can all join and wish that Wars, were a thing of the past.
Rudo333		#25	[-]
Posts: 11049 ( 8 Nov, 2009 11:45 PM) The Pun Man Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Again emphasising my point that the focus is on the military! I disagree that the innocents should have their own special day - they should have their own natural lifetime. Better to live than to be remembered.
visitor132		#26	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 304 ( 8 Nov, 2009 11:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	war is an extreme escalation of conflict, conflict is a human trait it arises out of intolerance for each other, it comes from poverty and lack of social justice and many more things. we cannot end war without first creating peace, creating peace takes change, time and dialogue. I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there. - Mother Teresa She understood that creating peace will put an end to war, ending war will not necessarily create peace
Rudo333		#27	[-]
Posts: 11050 ( 9 Nov, 2009 12:00 AM) The Pun Man Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Very profound and thought provoking Joe.
Diamond Rose		#28	[-]
Posts: 2656 ( 9 Nov, 2009 6:32 AM) Rebel Angel Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What about the appalling disrespect shown to millions of innocent victims murdered in war, by glorifying the very people who killed them! - Julia But, the red poppy doesn't glorify war. It represents loss. Also, let's not forget that the pacifism of the West during the 20's and 30's was a sign of weakness that allowed Hitler and Stalin to consolidate their power that ultimately resulted in the carnage of WWII. To state this as your view at exactly the same time as Remembrance Day is little more than a slap in the face, it is an anti-war protest, it is politicising what is not about politics but about remembrance - of all those who have died in conflict. Hence, this is why I'm not keen on the white poppy in terms of its' timing. - Heather It's nice when we can agree on something Last Edited By: Diamond Rose 9 Nov, 2009 6:34 AM. Edited 1 times.
Wolf 2uk		#29	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 850 ( 9 Nov, 2009 10:09 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	We talk of Innocent's being Killed, and they should be morned as those who fight and died should be, I agree. But when someone takes up arms to defend the weak and the Innocent, surely they are 'sailing into Harms way' deliberately to save innocents. Innocents are dieing all the time not only in a warfare conflict, but again the 11 hour of the 11th Day, represents those that chose to put them self in a position to defend others, and should have a day of their own so as to point and say "without those that fight and die for Freedom, there would be no Freedom".
Julia333		#30	[-]
Posts: 77797 ( 9 Nov, 2009 12:59 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What about the appalling disrespect shown to millions of innocent victims murdered in war, by glorifying the very people who killed them! - Julia But, the red poppy doesn't glorify war. It represents loss. - Bruce Of course it glorifies war because it's in support of the military, the very people who actually pulled the triggers, performed mass killings, those who willingly entered the forces knowing full well that they'd be accepting training and blood money to kill. The only servicemen who deserve any respect, besides the poor conscripts, are those who grew to realise this fact and left the forces before it was too late. For those who want to listen to sense for a change, rather than allow themselves to be brainwashed my government propaganda, listen to the words of pacifist ex-servicemen such as Joe. If the red poppy isn't about glorifying war, what is this idiotic British Legion website poppy.org.uk all about then?? The Poppy Appeal Each year the nation expresses its unequivocal support for The Royal British Legion's charity work through the Poppy Appeal. The 2009 Poppy Appeal is emphasising the need to help the Afghan generation of the Armed Forces and their families - today and for the rest of their lives. For their sake, wear a poppy - and please help our fundraising by making a donation or volunteering your time. poppy.org.uk Pffft! No, not for their sake, but for the sake of their innocent civilian victims (millions of them, especially the children) who those killers planned to kill.
Alvida		#31	[-]
Posts: 9811 ( 9 Nov, 2009 2:28 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Rudo333 wrote: Interesting points Heather and ironic that your emphasis seems to be on the military, which is the very point I was (perhaps badly) trying to make. These days the whole remembrance is focussed on the military rather than all lives lost, irrespective of what the small print says. The small print? Actually reference to civilians is frequently made on the news and in the remembrance services. Armistace day is to mark the end of WWI and remember all who died, and all those in conflicts thereafter, military is a tad to do with it which is unfortunate for anyone who objects to the mention of military, but unavoidable. What is actually being proposed here, a remembrance day with no mention of soldiers? Heather, Heather, Heather, is there no place in your heart for the millions of civilians who also perished? I have to say Bendigo that your choice of wording is perplexing, the inference here is that I don't give a damn about anyone who's not wearing a uniform. Why on earth do my views about the timing of the white poppy mean I don't care about civilians when the red poppy is for civilians too. You are trying to suggest there can only be compassion for civilians if one takes an anti-war stance. I really dislike the terms pro-war and anti-war, they are really misleading, who is pro-war?? This really is the problem imo, everyone gets into discussing the ethics of militarism when it's about remembrance. Anyone can wear the white poppy and I am also free to have my views on it. Last Edited By: Alvida 9 Nov, 2009 2:32 PM. Edited 2 times.
Julia333		#32	[-]
Posts: 77819 ( 9 Nov, 2009 4:17 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm sure Peter didn't mean it that way, Heather, as we all know what a very caring and compassionate person you are. Actually reference to civilians is frequently made on the news and in the remembrance services. - Heather I checked it out to see for myself. I quote what was said in the news report … Britain has been paying tribute to those who have died for their country in wars past and present. Wreaths have been laid at cenotaphs and in bases across Afghanistan to mark Remembrance Sunday. …. This is unsettling for young men and women who are facing danger for their county. Unsettling for young men and women who are facing danger for their county?? What??? What about the millions of young men, women and children not in uniform slaughtered by those killers? I hear no mention or respect whatsoever for them! Disgusting sights like this glorifying mass killers are almost as sickening as the wars themselves. Forgive me for not searching through the whole video for a hint of a word to say sorry to the millions of civilian victims murdered but it makes me want to vomit.
Alvida		#33	[-]
Posts: 9815 ( 9 Nov, 2009 5:07 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Julia, I'm sorry but calling soldiers mass killers and murderers is about as offensive as it can get for Remembrance Day. I'm not going to bother attempting to make any case or argument because we both know where it goes and that it's completely pointless.
Wolf 2uk		#34	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 852 ( 9 Nov, 2009 5:08 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Heather, Heather, Heather, is there no place in your heart for the millions of civilians who also perished? Bendigo If I may answer as well. But we do have hearts and have set up the Unite Nations which should protect those civilians who are at risk. But what about the civilians who were killed when the US and the UK attacked Iraq. The Armed forces who died had no choice because they were ordered to do their thing by who...................Governments. So what I would like to see is those who are guilty of starting wars to be Hounded and put on trial and then they could answer directly to the civilians who were killed. Again those who take the Queens Shilling, have little say as where they are sent, so why not just honour them for putting up with a Government elected by the people who send them to be killed.
Bendigo		#35	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1004 ( 9 Nov, 2009 5:23 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ah, the best way to indicate care and compassion for the "collateral damage" of War (aka civilians) is to say the words - then there is no room for misunderstanding. From London to Hiroshima, to Dresden, to New York (9/11) Baghdad, and thousands upon thousands of other places in-between, the toll has been staggering.
Alvida		#36	[-]
Posts: 9816 ( 9 Nov, 2009 5:27 PM) Alvida Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Post edited because on reflection and in keeping with my previous post I don't wish to barter words on this issue any further. Last Edited By: Alvida 9 Nov, 2009 5:58 PM. Edited 1 times.
Viperlicious		#37	[-]
Posts: 1439 ( 9 Nov, 2009 7:25 PM) American Leprechaun Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I am a military veteran (US Navy). I see the futility of wars. The victor is always the army with the most bullets and bombs. The price is the lives of young men and women barely getting their lives off the ground (19-25 year olds). That to me is crazy. I have had several friends killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. One had his lower extremities blown away and they could not find it. The problem is that each side believes they are right and the other is wrong. What boggles the mind is that the United States gave Afghanistan (Taliban fighters) Stinger missiles and these missiles are being used to kill US and allied soldiers. It was given to them to fight off the Russians a decade ago. Sadly most terrorists are using children and women as covers. They know that the Geneva Convention will not allow soldiers to shoot at children or women so they hide behind this cover - COWARDS. BUT . . . if asked, I will go to Iraq and Afghanistan in a heartbeat. We have not found Osama bin Laden and once we bring him to justice, I would pull out of both wars.
Wolf 2uk		#38	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 854 ( 9 Nov, 2009 7:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pity Heather. But please lets not get into Hiroshima and the like, Blame governments not the Forces, who are as I said directed by those who civilians elect. And Hiroshima was an act that saved thousands from being killed. Who voted for Blair, and thought he would lead this country and it's armed forces into a war, which resulted in Civilians dying by the thousand. The Armed forces answer to those that are elected by a government, and a Government is elected by surprise surprise, the people. Innocent civilians who are killed are killed because those that put Armed forced in danger so order it. The Armed forces should have a day which is just about them, and those that want Innocents remembered, elected a government which talks peace not war. But least we forget, Freedom was won not by people sitting and talking, but by those that risked their life's so that we could enjoy freedom.
Viperlicious		#39	[-]
Posts: 1445 ( 9 Nov, 2009 7:47 PM) American Leprechaun Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	^ I agree John! If we did not stand up to Hitler where would we be today? If we did not stand up to Japan, would Japan rule the Orient with iron fists? Some wars were won and created a unified Germany (Berlin Wall came down 20 years ago). Communism fell in many former Soviet nations like Lativa, Lithuania, Armenia, Belarus . . . Freedom is not free. Sacrifices have to be made. What I hate is that Iraq and Afghanistan are not stepping in to fight for their freedoms. They allow US and allied troops to be killed. These two nations should send their children into the wars to see what death is like. Then they have the gall to criticize us. Do you call that gratitude?
deep trench		#40	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 1239 ( 9 Nov, 2009 8:05 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What I hate is that Iraq and Afghanistan are not stepping in to fight for their freedoms. They allow US and allied troops to be killed. These two nations should send their children into the wars to see what death is like. Then they have the gall to criticize us. Do you call that gratitude? For the sake of clarity Viperlicious do you think that the Iraqi people should be grateful that America (and her allies) have killed in excess of 102 000 innocent Iraqi civilians, thown the country into chaos and destroyed almost all of the infrastructure? If you could refresh my memory and tell me when the Iraqi people asked America to invade and overthrow their unjust ruler (the same unjust ruler incidentally that America pointedly refused to remove from power in "gulf war 1"). While we are at it (and because it is bound to be raised sooner or later) could you explain the level of Iraqs involvement in the 9-11 attack? If we did not stand up to Hitler where would we be today Probably in a unified federalist Europe with a German hand on the controls - no change there then! If we did not stand up to Japan, would Japan rule the Orient with iron fists? Would that be better or worse that Maoist China ruling the area with an Iron fist?

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