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Is the draft next?

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ChickOwWow	Is the draft next?	Lead	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 33 (20 May, 2008 9:23 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None WASHINGTON - The Pentagon alerted about 40,000 active-duty and National Guard soldiers yesterday that they will be deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in the fall, a sign that the military expects hard fighting to continue through late next year. The new orders will maintain the overall strength in Iraq at 15 combat brigades, about 130,000 troops, for next year. That is approximately the number of troops deployed in Iraq before President Bush ordered 25,000 additional troops deployed in January 2007. From the Baltimore Sun I'm really frustrated and I feel so sorry for the families of those men and women who are going to be deployed, and also for those who are already deployed. I support the troops. I am humbled by their service to my country, but we're running out of military, and I really believe that after the next presidential election, there will be a military draft where young men 18-25 will be forced to enlist and go to war.
Steed		#1	[-]
Posts: 533 (20 May, 2008 2:27 PM) Avenger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Depends who wins I think
Dead Monky		#2	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 341 (20 May, 2008 2:54 PM) King of Some Cosmos Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The draft. What a wretched institution. I'll be damned if I, or anyone, is going to be forced into fighting for anything. If you want to, fine. But people shouldn't be forced into it. It's horrid and goes against everything a self-proclaimed "free country" stands for.
Julia333		#3	[-]
Posts: 49345 (20 May, 2008 3:11 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'll be damned if I, or anyone, is going to be forced into fighting for anything. If you want to, fine. But people shouldn't be forced into it. It's horrid and goes against everything a self-proclaimed "free country" stands for. Totally agree, Monky!
Steed		#4	[-]
Posts: 536 (20 May, 2008 3:57 PM) Avenger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	So do I
Julia333		#5	[-]
Posts: 49350 (20 May, 2008 4:17 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I support the troops. I am humbled by their service to my country - Chick With respect, WHY? Without the armed forces there would be no wars! Okay, men will always fight, but they won't get very far without military weapons and firearms … without the forces. If a man kills another over a disagreement, and quite rightly is convicted of murder, why aren't soldiers considered murders too? I desperately struggle to see the difference, but can't to save my life. Killing someone over a disagreement is murder, full stop, unless in self defense. As far as I'm aware, the US is not under attack so what's all this about other than for oil?
Steed		#6	[-]
Posts: 538 (20 May, 2008 6:04 PM) Avenger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In Afghanistan the fight is against the Taleban who support and aid Al Quaida who did indeed attack the USA Iraq is muddied by the fact that the reason we are there is not as stated [most insist we were lied to, governments say the intelligence was wrong] either way Saddam certainly wanted the west to believe he had wmd & clearly he had them once because he used them on his own people. In my opinion & most people seem to disagree, it was right to remove Saddam anyway as he was a murderous Dictator. The above are the basic reasons we are at war Julia - oil is a smoke screen to a large extent but it is part of the story, it has to be remembered though that the west still pays Iraq for it's oil, we don't steal it. The biggest mistake in Iraq was to not have a proper exit stratedgy, the biggest mistake in Afghanistan was to not learn from the lesson that the USSR at it's most powerful did not defeat the Taleban I really don't think it's right to call the members of the armed services murderers, they are legitimate combatants We are all under attack - Al Quaida's operations pre-date both wars & 911. I don't see how you can say war is wrong as a blanket statement - aggression is wrong, defense is right... what about defending our friends or how about freeing oppressed people? are they acceptable reasons to fight?
Julia333		#7	[-]
Posts: 49355 (20 May, 2008 7:29 PM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thank you for the explanation, Ray. We are all under attack - Al Quaida's operations pre-date both wars & 911. Sorry, I can't see it, well no more than the terrorist attacks we've repeatedly endured by the IRA, but then what would I know? I shut my eyes and ears to the mention of war because it sickens me. How can you say we are under attack when it's Iraq and Afghanistan that's being invaded and attacked by 'our' troops? 130,000 troops is it?? I'd like to know how many innocent civilians, children especially, have been 'killed' over there by them. Does anyone have figures? Hang on, let me google … The families of more than 500 Iraqi civilians killed by US (April 2007) Source A total of 923 civilians were killed in March, up 31 percent from February and the deadliest month since August 2007 Source And that was just in one month!!! My God, can't you see it? I really don't think it's right to call the members of the armed services murderers Of course they're not murders - I'm just being honest enough to admit that's how it appears to me. I realise my views are in the minority and I'm probably totally wrong, but as I said I honestly can't see the difference. what about defending our friends or how about freeing oppressed people? are they acceptable reasons to fight? Not if innocent civilians get their brains blown out in the process. No way!! Just as many, if not a whole lot more lives are lost in war. We are supposed to be a civilised society. There must be a more civilised way to reach resolutions!
Steed		#8	[-]
Posts: 539 (20 May, 2008 7:53 PM) Avenger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If the USA, Canada, Oz etc etc were invaded I would be ashamed if our country did not fight alongside them in their defence - this is not whats happening now I know but it is part of the wider question in the last two posts Agree to differ
Dartmistress		#9	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 7933 (21 May, 2008 2:07 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	With a son, a son in law and two grandsons in the armed forces, I find your remark insulting, Julia. My children are obeying orders and doing their job. They are not murderers. Your children are safe at home, you have no idea how it feels to have your children sent to these places of conflict. You might change your mind if they come and drop a few bombs on Manchester.
Dead Monky		#10	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 342 (21 May, 2008 3:13 AM) King of Some Cosmos Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I personally have nothing against those in the military. Most are there for quite practical reasons: college money, no other job, wanting to travel, etc. I have issue with the politcians who decide policy, declare wars, and contemplate or actually force people into the service against their will. They are the horrible people and murderers.
Jacqui Stafford		#11	[-]
Posts: 3633 (21 May, 2008 8:41 AM) Courtyard Genius Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	With a son, a son in law and two grandsons in the armed forces, I find your remark insulting, Julia. - Dartmistress I know that Julia didn't mean it in the way you have interpreted it, Irene. In fact she says so in a subsequent post. It's obvious that soldiers are not murderers because there is no 'malice aforethought', no hatred felt by the soldier against the person he or she kills. Killing an enemy of the state is carried out dispassionately, clinically and in most cases professionally. But let me phrase Julia's original question in the way I think she meant it... "If the killing of a human being by another human being is wrong when both are citizens, what makes it right when one or both both are soldiers?" Can we rely on a government which says that it is right to kill anyone who gets in the way of our efforts to protect our investment in oil, for example? We all admire and respect the members of our armed forces, Julia included. We do not all, however, admire and respect the people who control them from the Palace of Westminster.
Steed		#12	[-]
Posts: 543 (21 May, 2008 9:57 AM) Avenger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Good grief!
Jacqui Stafford		#13	[-]
Posts: 3638 (21 May, 2008 10:06 AM) Courtyard Genius Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Did someone heckle?
ChickOwWow		#14	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 36 (21 May, 2008 10:28 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Julia333 wrote: I support the troops. I am humbled by their service to my country - Chick With respect, WHY? Without the armed forces there would be no wars! Okay, men will always fight, but they won't get very far without military weapons and firearms … without the forces. If a man kills another over a disagreement, and quite rightly is convicted of murder, why aren't soldiers considered murders too? I desperately struggle to see the difference, but can't to save my life. Killing someone over a disagreement is murder, full stop, unless in self defense. As far as I'm aware, the US is not under attack so what's all this about other than for oil? The troops are the individuals. I support the individuals, many of whom are also against the war, but because they enlisted, are stuck over there fighting. I support them because they are laying their lives on the line in service to my country. It's not their fault that the government of my country sent them over to Iraq. If they hadn't joined the military, my government would have drafted men and maybe women to go over there and do the job. It IS possible to support the men and women who work so hard, and not support the war. AND.... it is also possible to support the efforts of the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not be an evil person who supports murder. It is also possible that you have some mothers, daughters, sisters, brothers, wives, and widows of military men and women here on your forum, and perhaps that is why it's such a sensitive topic for us. Your statement "without the armed forces there would be no war" is in my humble opinion, untrue. The armed forces don't start the wars. The men and women running the governments do that. Iran has military. China has military. Japan has military. Every country has some form of military. Is it the military causing the problems? No. They're doing the jobs they are told to do. It is the men and women who run the countries who are causing the wars, but, in reality, it is the financial wizards who are running the world, that get those men and women into office, and who then manipulate the world into doing as they want it to do. These are my opinions. I realize they differ from yours, but the world is full of varying opinions. Last Edited By: ChickOwWow 21 May, 2008 10:39 AM. Edited 1 times.
Julia333		#15	[-]
Posts: 49379 (21 May, 2008 11:32 AM) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Chic, Thank you for explaining your viewpoint, and so eloquently. I respect yours and eveyone's viewpoint who supports the military, but it doesn't change my views. I'm sorry you find my viewpoint insulting, Irene, but the fact of the matter is it's a viewpoint held my many anti-war protestors. Your children are safe at home, you have no idea how it feels to have your children sent to these places of conflict. - Irene It's exactly because I can imagine what it's like (I have 2 sons) that I would do whatever I can to dissuade them from joining the forces because I want them alive, and because it's wrong to kill. As Jacqui rightly pointed out (thank you, Jacqui ) I stressed in my second post that of course they are not murders, it just appears that way to me and many others, especially when 1000s of innocent civilians are being killed. It's obvious that soldiers are not murderers because there is no 'malice aforethought', no hatred felt by the soldier against the person he or she kills. - Jacqui Really??? I have issue with the politcians who decide policy, declare wars, and contemplate or actually force people into the service against their will. They are the horrible people and murderers. - Monky Exactly, Monky! I also have little respect for anyone who willingly works for them and follows their evil orders. Revenge may well be sweet for some but two wrongs will never ever make a right!! If the USA, Canada, Oz etc etc were invaded I would be ashamed if our country did not fight alongside them in their defence - Ray You might change your mind if they come and drop a few bombs on Manchester. - Irene My whole point is - without military weapons and the armed forces that would never happen! I rest my case!
Thisgirlistrouble		#16	[-]
Posts: 666 (21 May, 2008 2:38 PM) This Girl is Trouble Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It's a good thing that England had armed forces in 1940. Unfortunately we live a world where armed forces are necessary. I don't for a minute support the war in Iraq. But I think that the war in Afghanistan is worthwhile. Do I think that war can be won? Not really. History teaches us that Afghanistan is a tough place not only to invade but to keep secure after an invasion/occupation. Although if the UN and world at large really cared about truly oppressed peoples an army would have removed the governments of both Zimbabwe and Burma to name a couple of awful regimes which are going to hang onto power no matter what. As for a 'Draft' I'd consider that to be electoral suicide.
Viper1963		#17	[-]
Posts: 2312 (23 May, 2008 8:16 AM) American Leprechaun Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	From my perspective, if anyone invaded the United States or attacked it like they did on September 11, 2001; I would be the first one to go out there and find the cowards who did it. Same goes for the UK, Canada, Australia and other nations who stood behind us in the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars. But I draw the line when our Allies and troops are being killed because we cannot stop the weapons coming to the Al Qaida insurgents. I do know if Buckingham Palace or Parliment was attacked like 9/11, the United States military would be the first to offer assistance for defense. I know this because the UK, Canada and Australia are some of our strongest allies. And you do not refuse assistances to your allies. For me, I want to end oppression, tyranny and dictatorships.
Steed		#18	[-]
Posts: 578 (23 May, 2008 9:14 AM) Avenger Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	For me, I want to end oppression, tyranny and dictatorships That's a wonderful ambition Steve, I agree with you and only wish the UN would pull themselves together and act as one for good.
Dead Monky		#19	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 344 (23 May, 2008 3:18 PM) King of Some Cosmos Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Julia, there will always be militaries and weapons. We're human beings and humans seem to be inherently violent, intollerant, and self-serving. I could go into a bunch of reasons on how such traits are evolutionary holdovers or even advantages, but I'll apare you. Suffice it to say that we humans have been butchering each other since before we were actually homo sapiens. Over the years we've just gotten better at it. Now, as for whether the troops themselves are murderers, some are, most however are not. Like any group of people there is much variation among it's members. Many, or more likely most, of them are simply there for practical reasons like the ones I listed above. But we can't deny that some of them probably join becuase they hate Muslims, because they're jerks that like bullying people, or because they just want to kill people. Just like one cannot deny that some people become police because they want to have authority over others. It's a sad fact, but to deny it is hopelessly naive.
Viper1963		#20	[-]
Posts: 2324 (24 May, 2008 5:22 PM) American Leprechaun Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dead Monkey, this is happened in past history. If you were Japanese, you were hated (WWII). But what gets me is that Germany was our enemy too yet the people of the United States never treated German-Americans like they did Japanese-Americans. Know why? Because many of the politicians in the US were of German ancestry. Pure prejudice. When Iran held Americans hostage in 1979-80, the Iranian-Americans bore the brunt of the hate. Now anyone with any connection with Muslims are targeted. Even Indian Sikhs are targeted yet they are peaceful people. When you see someone with a turbin you automatically think, "Al-Qaida". This is wrong. This is pure prejudice by association. I do not hate Muslims. I feel for them because of a hanfdul of fanatics is tarnishing their religion. And I do not hate Iranians, Palestinians, North Koreans . . . I do have a distaste for their government though.

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